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NFPA 58 Chapter 10

Question asked by aldo.cisternas on Aug 24, 2017
Latest reply on Nov 16, 2017 by cdafd

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Hello:

First off all, I want to thanks NFPA for having on-line forums in which we can ask technical questions.

I work for a Chilena GLP Company called Abastible, and we have had some problems interpreting the NFPA-58, Chapter 10 (Buildings or Structures Housing LP-Gas Distribution Facilities)

The Application says "This chapter applies to the construction, ventilation, and heating of structures, parts of structures, and rooms housing LP-Gas systems where specified by other parts of the code" In this regard, I am confused about the type of structures Chapter 10 is referring to.

Does it apply to a residential dwelling units, like the one shows below?

Does it apply to a residential building like this one?

Commercial units like this ?

.... or Chapter 10 applies only to a special kind of building were GLP needs to be distributed to neighbor rooms?

That is my question ... I hope you can understand it.

Thanks in advance and Best Regards

Aldo Cisternas

Engineer

Abastible S.A

aldo.cisternas@abastible.cl

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cdafd Aug 24, 2017 8:11 PM
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Which year edition of 58

Normally the first couple paragraphs tells where it applies to
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- aldo.cisternas @ cdafd on Aug 25, 2017 10:15 AM
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  Edition 2004
  
  I agree that the first couple of paragraphs tells where it applies to …. But, Chapter 10 confuse me, because it seems to overrule what NFPA 58-2004 tells in orher parts of the code.
  
  For instance, the Minimum Separation Distances Between Containers, Important Buildings, and Other Properties, specified in Chapter 6, are not respected in Chapter 10.
  
  Containers installed outside of buildings, whether of the portable type replaced on a cylinder exchange basis or permanently installed and refilled at the installation, shall be located with respect to the adjacent containers, important building, group of buildings, or line of adjoining property that can be built upon, in accordance with Table 6.3.1, etc, etc, etc.
  
  Chapter 6 tells that containers must be located outside buildings, but Chapter 10 allows containerd to be located inside buildings. It seems contradictory.
  
  Finally, I am not sure if Chapter 10 refers to DOT containers, ASME containers, or it refers to both.
  
  Thanks in advance for any help.
  
  Best Regards
  
  Aldo G. Cisternas
  Abastible S.A
  www.abastible.cl
  
  De: cdafd
  Enviado el: jueves, 24 de agosto de 2017 21:12
  Para: Aldo Cisternas Pettinelli <Aldo.Cisternas@abastible.cl>
  Asunto: Re: - Re: NFPA 58 Chapter 10
  
  NFPA Xchange <https://community.nfpa.org/?et=watches.email.thread>
  
  Re: NFPA 58 Chapter 10
  
  reply from cda cda<https://community.nfpa.org/people/cdafd?et=watches.email.thread> in Code Enforcement - View the full discussion<https://community.nfpa.org/message/45361?commentID=45361&et=watches.email.thread#comment-45361>
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cdafd Aug 25, 2017 12:06 PM
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Well, normally you go by the year edition that you are governed by, even though a older or newer one may say something different.

Would have to look at the 2004
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- aldo.cisternas @ cdafd on Aug 25, 2017 12:23 PM
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  Hello:
  
  We are governed by NFPA 58 2004 Edition, so the question is about Chapter 10 in the NFPA 58 2004 Edition.
  
  [cid:image008.png@01D31DA5.49DA50D0]
  
  [cid:image010.png@01D31DA5.49DA50D0]
  
  Thanks in advance … Regards
  
  Aldo Cisternas Pettinelli
  Ingeniero de Procesos
  Subgerencia de Integridad de Instalaciones
  
  Avenida Apoquindo 5550, piso 8,
  Las Condes, Santiago, Chile.
  T +56 2.2569.6753
  C +56 9.7529.5845
  www.abastible.cl<http://www.abastible.cl/>
  
  De: cdafd
  Enviado el: viernes, 25 de agosto de 2017 13:07
  Para: Aldo Cisternas Pettinelli <Aldo.Cisternas@abastible.cl>
  Asunto: Re: - Re: NFPA 58 Chapter 10
  
  NFPA Xchange <https://community.nfpa.org/?et=watches.email.thread>
  
  Re: NFPA 58 Chapter 10
  
  reply from cda cda<https://community.nfpa.org/people/cdafd?et=watches.email.thread> in Code Enforcement - View the full discussion<https://community.nfpa.org/message/45492?commentID=45492&et=watches.email.thread#comment-45492>
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cdafd Aug 25, 2017 12:27 PM
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Well my answer would be are you looking at something that comes under chapter 10 or chapter six?

Decide which chapter applies. Than whatever that chapter says would be what the rules are.
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- aldo.cisternas @ cdafd on Aug 25, 2017 3:06 PM
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  Hello:
  
  Maybe, I have not explained the problem very well … Let see If I can explain it better.
  
  The NFPA 58 Chapter 6 indicates the localization of LPG Containers is outside buildings, except in certain cases. One of this cases is written in section 6.2.2 (2)
  
  6.2 Location of Containers.
  
  6.2.1 LP-Cas containers shall be located outside of buildings
  unless they are specifically allowed to be located inside of
  buildings.
  6.2.2 LP-Gas containers shall be allowed in buildings only for
  the following applications:
  (l) Cylinders as specifically provided for in Section 6.17
  (2) Containers of less than 125 gal (0.5111") water capacity for
  the purposes of being filled in buildings or structures
  complying with Chapter 10
  
  What I do not understand, is what kind of buildings or structures Chapter 10 refers to.
  
  Can it be a residential house like tihis one?
  
  Can it be a residential building like this one?
  
  Can it be a commercial unit like this below?
  
  ….. Or the buildings and structures complying with Chapter 10 refers to Industrial facilities (like factories, plants) where the GLP containers must be inside buildings due to the fact that GLP is used as part of the industrial process.
  
  Thanks in advance
  
  Aldo Cisternas Pettinelli
  Ingeniero de Procesos
  Subgerencia de Integridad de Instalaciones
  
  Avenida Apoquindo 5550, piso 8,
  Las Condes, Santiago, Chile.
  T +56 2.2569.6753
  C +56 9.7529.5845
  www.abastible.cl<http://www.abastible.cl/>
  
  De: cdafd
  Enviado el: viernes, 25 de agosto de 2017 13:28
  Para: Aldo Cisternas Pettinelli <Aldo.Cisternas@abastible.cl>
  Asunto: Re: - Re: NFPA 58 Chapter 10
  
  NFPA Xchange <https://community.nfpa.org/?et=watches.email.thread>
  
  Re: NFPA 58 Chapter 10
  
  reply from cda cda<https://community.nfpa.org/people/cdafd?et=watches.email.thread> in Code Enforcement - View the full discussion<https://community.nfpa.org/message/45493?commentID=45493&et=watches.email.thread#comment-45493>
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cdafd Aug 25, 2017 4:50 PM

I think chapter ten applies to commercial setting

Chapter six has both general and specific requirements, you just have to read through and see what applies to your situation.

As far as 6.2.2 it tells you where inside a system is allowed

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aldo.cisternas @ cdafd on Sep 7, 2017 9:34 AM

Hello again:

After a week of thinking about the topic, I would like to show you an example to see if it fits to the spirit of NFPA 58 – 2004, Chapter 10.

The example (which is a real case) is a residential building (24 apartments) with 2 LPG containers that delivers LP-Gas to apartments for residential use. The location of LPG containers is inside the building, in a room housing the LP-Gas system. Three walls and the roof are of heavy construction (reinforced concrete construction) and the fourth one is a wall with unobstructed free vents.

We would like to know if this setting comply with NFPA 58-2004, Chapter 10, Section 10.3 Attached Structures or Rooms Within Structures.

More than 50% of the perimeter of the space enclosed is comprised of common walls whit the building (NFPA 58-2004, Section 10.3.2.1 – “Rooms within structures shall be spaces where more than 50 percent of the perimeter of the space enclosed is comprised of common walls”)

Front view of the room within structures

Perspective view showing the fence to get the container´s room and the explosion venting window.

LPG container´s room is located in the first story and have an unobstructed wall at the front, which allows freely relieving explosion pressures (NFPA 58-2004, Section 10.3.2.2 (Rooms within structures shall be located in the first story and shall have at least one exterior wall with unobstructed free vents for freely relieving explosion pressures)

Unobstructed free vents for freely relieving explosion pressures, which in our case is a fence that allows to get inside the container room.

Walls, floor, ceiling of roofs are made of noncombustible materials (NFPA 58-2004, Section 10.3.2.3 (Walls, floor, ceiling of roofs of the rooms shall be constructed of noncombustible materials)

The room have a venting window with an explosion venting area of 7 ft2 and the enclosed volume is 254 ft3 (NFPA 58-2004, Section 10.3.2.5 (Walls and roofs of heavy construction (such as solid brick masonry, concrete block, or reinforced concrete construction) shall be provided with explosion venting windows or panels that have an explosion venting area of at least 1 ft2 (0.1 m2 ) for each 50 ft2 (1.4 m2) of the enclosed volume)

Explosion Venting Window

Having said all this for the purpose of fully understanding, our inquire to any NFPA technical forumers that can respond us, is:

The case shown above ….

Does it follow the provisions of NFPA 58-2004, Chapter 10?

Does it fit to the spirit of NFPA 58-2004, Chapter 10?

Thanks in advance for any help from NFPA technical forumers

Best Regards

Aldo Cisternas Pettinelli

Ingeniero de Procesos

Subgerencia de Integridad de Instalaciones

Avenida Apoquindo 5550, piso 8,

Las Condes, Santiago, Chile.
T +56 2.2569.6753

C +56 9.7529.5845
www.abastible.cl

PS: If there is some problem viewing the pictures in the web forum, please tell me an email where I can send them.

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cdafd Sep 7, 2017 2:41 PM
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I can only speak for the city I work in, and what you show would not be approved.

Now if this is common practice where you are, that is another thing.
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- aldo.cisternas @ cdafd on Sep 8, 2017 2:39 PM
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  No, this is not common practice here.
  
  Until last year, the code we used was a national code, that indicated that all LPG containers must be outside buildings, whether be a residential, commercial or industrial LPG installation … NO EXCEPTIONS.
  
  But this year, since January first, we adopted the American Standard NFPA 58 – 2004 as our code for GLP Installation’s (residential, commercial and industrial).
  
  As any new set of rules, we started reading NFPA 58 – 2004 comprehensively to get and extensive understanding of the code.
  
  In Section 6.2 (Location of Containers) we found that LP-Gas containers must be located outside buildings (same statement as the national code we used until last year), but it include 7 exceptions where LP-Gas containers are allowed to be in buildings (Section 6.2.2).
  
  One of these exception is the number (2) that states that “Containers of less than 125 gal (0,5 m3) water capacity for the purpose of being filled in buildings or structures complying with Chapter 10”
  
  We design and LPG installation in a building (The pictures in my last post) that according to our engineering judgement, follows what it is indicated in Chapter 10, Section 10.3.2
  
  ·         Containers ‘capacity is 79 gal water capacity.
  
  ·         It complies with NFPA 58-2004 Section 10.3.2.1
  
  ·         It complies with NFPA 58-2004 Section 10.3.2.2
  
  ·         It complies with NFPA 58-2004 Section 10.3.2.3
  
  ·         It complies with NFPA 58-2004 Section 10.3.2.5
  
  You said that, what I showed would not be approved … How is that?
  
  Please, Would you mind explaining this in greater detail ….. What are the mistakes we are making?
  
  Sorry for insisting, but in our country nobody can answer this, because is a new topic we are dealing with.
  
  Thanks in advance for any help
  
  Aldo G. Cisternas (Senior Engineer)
  
  De: cdafd
  Enviado el: jueves, 7 de septiembre de 2017 15:43
  Para: Aldo Cisternas Pettinelli <Aldo.Cisternas@abastible.cl>
  Asunto: Re: - Re: NFPA 58 Chapter 10
  
  NFPA Xchange <https://community.nfpa.org/?et=watches.email.thread>
  
  Re: NFPA 58 Chapter 10
  
  reply from cda cda<https://community.nfpa.org/people/cdafd?et=watches.email.thread> in Code Enforcement - View the full discussion<https://community.nfpa.org/message/45861?commentID=45861&et=watches.email.thread#comment-45861>
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cdafd Sep 8, 2017 4:58 PM
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It will be Monday, but look at distance from a building the container is required to be.

The trouble is that standard covers a lot of stuff. You have to zero in on just the chapter or section that applies to your situation.
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- cdafd @ cdafd on Sep 11, 2017 9:18 AM
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  Not sure what year this comes from, but has not changed much
  
  Propane Tank Distance Rules and Requirements
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cdafd Sep 8, 2017 8:49 PM
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http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/aboutthecodes/58/58_faqs.pdf
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- aldo.cisternas @ cdafd on Sep 11, 2017 2:46 PM
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  We place tanks in a legal and safe lociation following NFPA 58-2004 (Propane Tank Distance Rules and Requirements), but what it is shown in the link you guys sent me, is for tanks located outside buildings.
  
  Also what is said in NFPA 58 FAQ´s, question 4, applies to propane cylinders (DOT cylinder), and I am referring to ASME propane tank.
  
  The tank in pictures, is a 120 Gallon Vertical ASME Propane Tank that comply with the following:
  
  Located in a room inside the building, where more than 50% of the perimeter of the space enclosed is comprised of common walls whit the building.Three walls and the roof are of heavy construction (reinforced concrete construction) and the fourth one is a wall with unobstructed free vents (in our case is the unobstructed front fence)
  LPG tank´s room is located in the first story and have an unobstructed wall at the front, which allows freely relieving explosion pressures.
  Walls, floor, ceiling of roofs are made of noncombustible materials.
  The room have a venting window with an explosion venting area of 7 ft2 and the enclosed volume is 254 ft3
  
  As I have mention in this forum since the begining, all I what to figure out, is what type of building NFPA 2004 Chapter 10, refers to.
  
  Why this design ( showing in the pictures) is not complying with NFPA 2004- Chapter 10, Section 10.3.2 ?????
  
  I think is correct,unless I am missing something.
  
  Regards
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  - cdafd @ aldo.cisternas on Sep 11, 2017 3:11 PM
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    Using NFPA 58 2004 edition
    
    To me Chapter 10 is only for how you would heat and ventilate a building that houses a """"LPG distribution facility."""
    
    Plus 10.2.1 limits the entire building to one story.
    
    6.2.1 and 6.2.2 tell you when a container can be inside of a building. AND, I do not see your use in the list,,,,
    
    So the tanks have to be outside.
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  - cdafd @ aldo.cisternas on Sep 11, 2017 3:12 PM
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    Chapter 10 provides requirements for buildings and structures that house specific LP-Gas systems or activities involved with the distribution of LP-Gas. These buildings, commonly called “special” buildings or structures, are used to house operations in which LP-Gas can be or is normally released. Chapter 10 includes requirements for construction, ventilation, and heating of these special-purpose buildings, structures, or rooms. The requirements of Chapter 10 apply only where specifically required elsewhere in the code.
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  - cdafd @ aldo.cisternas on Sep 11, 2017 3:14 PM
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    In addition to the general prohibition on using cylinders indoors, it is also prohibited to store cylinders, either empty or full, inside a residential building. Requirements for storage of cylinders awaiting use or sale are located in Chapter 8, and there are exceptions for necessary uses in Chapter 8
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  - cdafd @ aldo.cisternas on Sep 11, 2017 3:15 PM
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    Because propane is a flammable gas, NFPA 58 has always required that LP-Gas containers be located outdoors, with the stated exceptions in 6.2.2. A flammable gas leak outdoors dissipates much more quickly and with less chance of reaching a source of ignition than a leak occurring indoors.
    FAQ Can I use or store my propane cylinder indoors?
    The code recognizes that there are a limited number of necessary uses of propane cylinders in buildings and structures, and these uses are listed in 6.2.2. These permitted uses are based on safeguards to minimize the possibility of a release of LP-Gas that can lead to ignition. The safeguards include limiting the size of the container, controlling the presence of ignition sources, and even designing the room or building to minimize the consequences of an explosion or fire.
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    - aldo.cisternas @ cdafd on Nov 16, 2017 2:53 PM
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      Hello again after a couple of month:
      
      I want to reply to one of the above post now (after a couple of month)
      
      The answer was:
      I can only speak for the city I work in, and what you show would not be approved.
      
      I don´t know how many US states have adopted the NFPA 58, but in those states were the NFPA 58 Chapter 10 is applied, the case that I showed (in a kind of charcoal drawings) would not be approved .... would´t be?
      
      Thanks in advance
      
      Aldo
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cdafd Nov 16, 2017 3:08 PM
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We have adopted it in away

And no that set up would not be allowed
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- aldo.cisternas @ cdafd on Nov 16, 2017 4:27 PM
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  Hello:
  
  Thanks for your prompt answer
  
  Just to be sure about your answer.
  
  Do all US states have adopted the NFPA-58 (including Chapter 10) for LPG issues?
  
  I ask this because I found over the web that the state of New Jersey adopted NFPA 58-2004 but deleted Chapter 10 (Buildings or Structures Housing LP-Gas Distribution Facilities)
  
  And finally, if you read section 10.1.1 of NFPA 58:
  
  Chapter 10 Buildings or Structures Housing LP-Gas Distribution Facilities
  10.1 Scope.
  10.1.1 Application. This chapter applies to the construction,
  ventilation, and heating of structures, parts of structures, and
  rooms housing LP-Gas systems where specified by other parts
  of th e code.
  
  Could some member of this helpful forum, give me a practical example of a structure/building/room housing LP-Gas distribution facility that comply with Chapter 10?
  
  An apartment building …. I would say no way (assuming that there is no an external patio to place the tank)
  A commercial setting (like a Wendy´s) … I would say no way (assuming that there is no an external patio to place the tank)
  A single-family dwelling … no way either?
  
  A building to storage LPG ASME tank? …. Perhaps?
  An Industrial facility? …. Maybe?
  
  I have really appreciated the help of NFPA forumers all this time …. really
  
  Trully thanks
  
  Aldo Cisternas
  www.abastible.cl
  
  De: cdafd
  Enviado el: jueves, 16 de noviembre de 2017 17:09
  Para: Aldo Cisternas Pettinelli <Aldo.Cisternas@abastible.cl>
  Asunto: Re: - Re: NFPA 58 Chapter 10
  
  NFPA Xchange <https://community.nfpa.org/?et=watches.email.thread>
  
  Re: NFPA 58 Chapter 10
  
  reply from cda cda<https://community.nfpa.org/people/cdafd?et=watches.email.thread> in Code Enforcement - View the full discussion<https://community.nfpa.org/message/48228?commentID=48228&et=watches.email.thread#comment-48228>
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cdafd Nov 16, 2017 4:30 PM
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Do all US states have adopted the NFPA-58 (including Chapter 10) for LPG issues?

I woild say say no to that question
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NFPA 58 Chapter 10

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